Russia, Ukraine war: David Seymour, James Shaw back Jacinda Ardern's call on Vladimir Putin war criminal claims

ACT's David Seymour is backing the Prime Minister over her decision not to explicitly call Russian leader Vladimir Putin a "war criminal", saying that should be something for international courts to judge, not politicians.

Jacinda Ardern also has the support of the Greens' James Shaw, who said Putin is a "ghastly, ghastly human being" but believes a tribunal should decide whether he is a war criminal.

"There are certainly war crimes being committed in Ukraine," Shaw said on Tuesday. "It is an absolute tragedy that is unfolding there.

"It is not for me to say who is a war criminal. That, I think, is up to a tribunal. I think there should be a tribunal obviously when we see the evidence all around us. But ultimately that is a matter for that tribunal."

He said Putin is causing "mass death and suffering for thousands of people and the displacement of millions of people" and would personally like to see him behind bars. 

Seymour said this was a rare occasion where he agrees with the Prime Minister. 

"My personal opinion: I think what he is doing is a war crime. As a politician, the difference between us and Vladimir Putin is we respect the rule of law and say people are innocent until proven guilty in a court. It is up to international courts to decide whether he is a war criminal and that is where I hope he will be very soon.

"[Ardern] is the Prime Minister of a country. She has to respect the rule of law and she has to say somebody is innocent until proven guilty. Do I personally think he is committing war crimes? Based on everything I am seeing, yes. But it is not up to a politician to decide if somebody is guilty, it is up to a court. I think Jacinda Ardern has got that one right. You won't hear me say that often."

The Prime Minister was repeatedly asked on Monday why she wouldn't call Putin a war criminal amid distressing reports of hundreds of Ukrainian civilians' bodies being found in the town of Bucha, outside of the capital Kyiv. 

She said what was being reported was "beyond reprehensible" and there was "evidence of war crimes at the hands of Russia", but wouldn't explicitly say Putin is a war criminal. 

"I'm not the judge in the International Criminal Court. We are supporting the International Criminal Court to make that determination, but every piece of evidence points to the fact that there are war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine at the hands of the President Vladimir Putin."

National's Christopher Luxon has taken another approach, saying on Tuesday morning that while he understood the need for a formal process, he was "comfortable calling [Putin] a war criminal". 

"Officially, you have got to be prosecuted and convicted before you get labelled a criminal. But I would have to say to you that the evidence is pretty compelling, the evidence is there. I would be quite comfortable calling him a war criminal," Luxon said.

"The pictures we are all seeing are very alarming. I appreciate there is a process to go through before you get formally prosecuted, but I think we can see what is happening there and it is definitely war crimes."

Media organisations have been to Bucha to document the atrocities. Reuters reported on Tuesday that journalists were taken to the basement of a children's residence to show them the bodies of five men with their hands tied behind their backs. Satellite imagery shows mass graves built at a local church.

"I think Jacinda Ardern has got that one right," Seymour said.
"I think Jacinda Ardern has got that one right," Seymour said. Photo credit: Getty Images.

On Tuesday, Ardern responded to claims posted by the Russian Embassy in Wellington that "the photos and video footage from Bucha are another hoax, a staged production and provocation by the Kiev regime for the Western media".

"Clearly, that is not our view. But we are working very hard and making a contribution to the international efforts to gather the evidence required to pursue this through the International Criminal Court," Ardern said. 

"There is certainly evidence of what you are seeing many leaders describe as war crimes, indiscriminate killing of civilians, reports of civilians being raped. Many of us have seen some of the images. I have seen some myself that are outside of the public domain and it again reinforces to me the importance of New Zealand's efforts to ensure that Russia is held to account through the International Criminal Court."

Asked who provided those images to her, Ardern said she was in contact with her counterparts in Ukraine.

She said people need to understand there is disinformation emanating from social media. 

There have been calls for the Russian Ambassador to New Zealand to be expelled. European countries have recently taken the step of expelling Russian diplomats in their countries.

Ardern said on Monday that New Zealand has "used far more powerful tools to date whilst of course keeping on the table those other diplomatic options". 

"You'll see that very few countries have recalled their diplomatic representatives from Russia," she said.

"Between sanctions, tariffs, travel bans, export bans, providing military aid, providing equipment to Ukraine - when it comes to expelling ambassadors, that also means that you lose your representation in those countries. We haven't ruled it out."

Luxon said on Tuesday that the time for diplomacy was over. 

"We said on day one that the time for diplomacy was over, it was finished and there was no intention for diplomatic resolution to this and you have continued to see that over the last month. From our point of view, we would have pulled our higher staff out of Moscow and we would have sent the Russian diplomat home."

The Government has taken a number of steps in response to the invasion, including creating a new visa category for family members of Ukrainians in New Zealand, donating humanitarian aid, sending equipment to Ukraine and deploying intelligence officers to assist in Europe.

On Monday night, a new round of sanctions against Russian oligarchs was announced.

"New Zealand is appalled at reports over the weekend showing the targeted killing and abuse of civilians, as Russian troops withdraw from areas of Ukraine," Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta said.

"Through our sanctions, we are working with the international community to put real pressure on those supporting Putin and his regime, and send a clear message that this illegal invasion cannot continue, and that the brutality and inhumane acts from Russian troops cannot be tolerated."

Ukrainian-Kiwi lawyer Anastasiya Gutorova told AM on Tuesday that the Government could still go further with sanctions. Mahuta said more measures are expected in the coming weeks.